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	<title>Comments on: Unions don&#8217;t like feedback, do they?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/</link>
	<description>Invisible people have invisible rights</description>
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		<title>By: FXR</title>
		<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/comment-page-1/#comment-925677</link>
		<dc:creator>FXR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Nov 2010 16:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mulley.net/?p=7283#comment-925677</guid>
		<description>The same guy also turned up at the RDS for the book launch of The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins where he was also asked to leave after speaking. I felt sorry for him. At one point he shouted &quot;I&#039;m one of 13 children&quot; and someone behind him shouted &quot;sit down, your&#039;e embarrassing the other 12&quot;.

In  a way he&#039;s an embarrassment because what should be the roar of a whole people across the width of this sorry corrupt little island is instead reduced to one lone man bellowing on his own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The same guy also turned up at the RDS for the book launch of The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins where he was also asked to leave after speaking. I felt sorry for him. At one point he shouted &#8220;I&#8217;m one of 13 children&#8221; and someone behind him shouted &#8220;sit down, your&#8217;e embarrassing the other 12&#8243;.</p>
<p>In  a way he&#8217;s an embarrassment because what should be the roar of a whole people across the width of this sorry corrupt little island is instead reduced to one lone man bellowing on his own.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack White</title>
		<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/comment-page-1/#comment-919851</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mulley.net/?p=7283#comment-919851</guid>
		<description>Ha Ha. That&#039;s the mentalist who went barmy on The Frontline about Pat Kenny&#039;s wages. not the brightest lampost on the street in all honesty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha Ha. That&#8217;s the mentalist who went barmy on The Frontline about Pat Kenny&#8217;s wages. not the brightest lampost on the street in all honesty.</p>
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		<title>By: Fergus O'Rourke</title>
		<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/comment-page-1/#comment-919780</link>
		<dc:creator>Fergus O'Rourke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mulley.net/?p=7283#comment-919780</guid>
		<description>@Philip

Of course, he&#039;s entitled to his views, and to express them, and there is some validity to them, too.

But, he was not merely shouting from the sidelines, he was trying to stop  the march and turn it into an argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Philip</p>
<p>Of course, he&#8217;s entitled to his views, and to express them, and there is some validity to them, too.</p>
<p>But, he was not merely shouting from the sidelines, he was trying to stop  the march and turn it into an argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/comment-page-1/#comment-919761</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mulley.net/?p=7283#comment-919761</guid>
		<description>@Fergus
&quot;Anyone who attempts to disrupt a demonstration in the way that “the protester” did IMHO cannot expect to get treated any differently than this man was.

Nor do they deserve to be. It’s a march, not a meeting or a debate. Even if it were, no participant is entitled to impose himself by shouting abuse.&quot;

This doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  Of course everyone is entitled to expect civil treatment in public but as long as this man doesn&#039;t raise his fists, he&#039;s entitled to say what he likes and make his point.  Democracy is not held in a forum chosen by etiquette.  Of course there are limits, but he is within his rights to say his piece.  It&#039;s on the road for crying out loud.

Besides, I agree with his main argument; the country is badly run and corrupt because everyone in power seems to be in bed with each other.  It&#039;s blindingly obvious to everyone now the country&#039;s in recession.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Fergus<br />
&#8220;Anyone who attempts to disrupt a demonstration in the way that “the protester” did IMHO cannot expect to get treated any differently than this man was.</p>
<p>Nor do they deserve to be. It’s a march, not a meeting or a debate. Even if it were, no participant is entitled to impose himself by shouting abuse.&#8221;</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t make sense to me.  Of course everyone is entitled to expect civil treatment in public but as long as this man doesn&#8217;t raise his fists, he&#8217;s entitled to say what he likes and make his point.  Democracy is not held in a forum chosen by etiquette.  Of course there are limits, but he is within his rights to say his piece.  It&#8217;s on the road for crying out loud.</p>
<p>Besides, I agree with his main argument; the country is badly run and corrupt because everyone in power seems to be in bed with each other.  It&#8217;s blindingly obvious to everyone now the country&#8217;s in recession.</p>
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		<title>By: The RTE Frontline shouty bloke &#124; Twenty Major &#8211; Still smoking in Dublin bars</title>
		<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/comment-page-1/#comment-919742</link>
		<dc:creator>The RTE Frontline shouty bloke &#124; Twenty Major &#8211; Still smoking in Dublin bars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mulley.net/?p=7283#comment-919742</guid>
		<description>[...] previous to that he&#8217;s been out on the streets giving it to union leaders (nicely spotted by [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] previous to that he&#8217;s been out on the streets giving it to union leaders (nicely spotted by [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Man attacks Pat Kenny on Frontline : Alexia Golez</title>
		<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/comment-page-1/#comment-919729</link>
		<dc:creator>Man attacks Pat Kenny on Frontline : Alexia Golez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mulley.net/?p=7283#comment-919729</guid>
		<description>[...] Same guy? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Same guy? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: manuel</title>
		<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/comment-page-1/#comment-919711</link>
		<dc:creator>manuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 23:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mulley.net/?p=7283#comment-919711</guid>
		<description>and they tip for shit too.......which is ironic really....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and they tip for shit too&#8230;&#8230;.which is ironic really&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Greene</title>
		<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/comment-page-1/#comment-919707</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 21:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mulley.net/?p=7283#comment-919707</guid>
		<description>@Fergus its not so much what they get paid its what they live on. &quot;living on a workers wage&quot; 

TDs &amp; MEPs on a workers wage don&#039;t get paid a workers wage but they redistribute their wage that is fixed by Parliament to their parties under strict SIPO rules and to community campaigns. 

so if a trade union leader has 6 directorships and a main job, its not about the sum total and take home pay and returning the monies to the boards he is a director on. Take the monies and distribute it accordingly but at the end of the day don&#039;t expect respect when you are living on a income(s) ten times the salary of your membership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Fergus its not so much what they get paid its what they live on. &#8220;living on a workers wage&#8221; </p>
<p>TDs &amp; MEPs on a workers wage don&#8217;t get paid a workers wage but they redistribute their wage that is fixed by Parliament to their parties under strict SIPO rules and to community campaigns. </p>
<p>so if a trade union leader has 6 directorships and a main job, its not about the sum total and take home pay and returning the monies to the boards he is a director on. Take the monies and distribute it accordingly but at the end of the day don&#8217;t expect respect when you are living on a income(s) ten times the salary of your membership.</p>
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		<title>By: Fergus O'Rourke</title>
		<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/comment-page-1/#comment-919706</link>
		<dc:creator>Fergus O'Rourke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 21:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mulley.net/?p=7283#comment-919706</guid>
		<description>@Brian

If the main requirement for a union leader is that s/he remain &quot;connected&quot; - and I agree that it *is* an important requirement - then I suppose that reducing pay to that of the average would do something to bring that about.

What I suggest that you have to consider whether it would have other, less desirable, effects.  Trade unionists - the teachers&#039; unions have been especially vocal on this of late - know as well as most that if you want to get good staff, you have to pay a wage that matches the challenges of the job. 

Also, I suggest that it would be more useful to pay the rate for the job and to build in a mechanism which ensured that leaders who failed to represent the membership faced the sack. Because, as we can see from the example of the teachers as well, paying &quot;top-dollar&quot; does not guarantee a top performance.

For a trade-union leader, to become disconnected from the membership is to fail to do the job properly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brian</p>
<p>If the main requirement for a union leader is that s/he remain &#8220;connected&#8221; &#8211; and I agree that it *is* an important requirement &#8211; then I suppose that reducing pay to that of the average would do something to bring that about.</p>
<p>What I suggest that you have to consider whether it would have other, less desirable, effects.  Trade unionists &#8211; the teachers&#8217; unions have been especially vocal on this of late &#8211; know as well as most that if you want to get good staff, you have to pay a wage that matches the challenges of the job. </p>
<p>Also, I suggest that it would be more useful to pay the rate for the job and to build in a mechanism which ensured that leaders who failed to represent the membership faced the sack. Because, as we can see from the example of the teachers as well, paying &#8220;top-dollar&#8221; does not guarantee a top performance.</p>
<p>For a trade-union leader, to become disconnected from the membership is to fail to do the job properly.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Greene</title>
		<link>http://www.mulley.net/2009/11/07/unions-dont-like-feedback-do-they/comment-page-1/#comment-919702</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mulley.net/?p=7283#comment-919702</guid>
		<description>@fergus David Begg on the Board of Aer Lingus is not the kind of workers control that I seek. Workers, Rank &amp; File &amp; shop stewards would do more than elitist types sitting on the board. 

My suggestion of union leaders pay levels is a firm one, it is less likely that the union leaders on 10 times the salary of the union member is in touch with the members reality. This is borne out seeing how disconnected the leaders are while round the table of &#039;partnership&#039; with politicians that earn 10 time what their constituents earn. Out of touch - disconnect. 

Begg would not work on 10% his salary, a better candidate should be elected. The layers below the ICTU high command are the very well paid leaders of each of the unions. Expect change not to come from the top. The members on the unions demanded this first march after the sell out of the labour movement (Gilmore then ICTU) calling off March 30th 2009 protest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@fergus David Begg on the Board of Aer Lingus is not the kind of workers control that I seek. Workers, Rank &amp; File &amp; shop stewards would do more than elitist types sitting on the board. </p>
<p>My suggestion of union leaders pay levels is a firm one, it is less likely that the union leaders on 10 times the salary of the union member is in touch with the members reality. This is borne out seeing how disconnected the leaders are while round the table of &#8216;partnership&#8217; with politicians that earn 10 time what their constituents earn. Out of touch &#8211; disconnect. </p>
<p>Begg would not work on 10% his salary, a better candidate should be elected. The layers below the ICTU high command are the very well paid leaders of each of the unions. Expect change not to come from the top. The members on the unions demanded this first march after the sell out of the labour movement (Gilmore then ICTU) calling off March 30th 2009 protest.</p>
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